Fargin won't start

[1lowcab]

damn man, that sux.... wish i could be more help.

[tolusina]

.

I spose the Dist could of gone to crap or the Timing is way off, as that is almost what it felt like too retarded.

I will run to pull-a-part and see if I can get a external pump...as a test.
....

I've never seen it happen on a 1.8, but really worn distributor shaft bushings were pretty common on 1.7s and earlier. If the shaft is really loose and wobbly, the Hall generator signal will be very erratic and that is a MAJOR input signal, garbage in=garbage out. Just pop the cap, give the rotor a good wiggle, watch it while cranking. Not much else can go wrong inside the distributor and still have spark.

You didn't happen to use W7DSR Bosch plugs did you? If so, throw them, far and hard with intent!! I'll use only W7DC or W7DTC, prefer the later. I have a personal growth type horror story about those W7DSRs, DSR must be short for DeStRoyer.

You've checked pump quantity, have you checked fuel pressure? Around 45 psi with no vacuum to the FPR, about 35 psi with vacuum applied. If you don't yet have a fuel pressure gauge, I respectfully suggest your time and money would be better spent that way than on an unknown pick-a-part pump. I'm still wondering if you have a pinched fuel return line causing too much pressure.
IDEA you'll need a large catch container, some hose and caution, run a hose directly from the FRP outlet into your safety catch container, completely bypassing the return pipe in the car. Cheap and easy way to eliminate a pinched line as a possible cause.

[Briano1234]

For today so far,

Checked the MAF sensor it is 500ohms static and scales up with the flag movement.

Checkd the hall Sensor module it appears to be working led pulses.

Injectors are 5ohm static, I havent checked the voltage pulse as my helper is devoid (school)

The digifart controller seems to pass muster as the Static tests go.

I have the fuel pressure test set and ready to go as soon as my helper arrives.

It briefly started this am....

so I will update as necessasary

The hall sender pulses checked at 5vdc and a flashing led
The ingectors are at 13.5 static, and pulse with led.
Fuel pump pressure is 48psi under start, and static holds at 36psi under no load. I cluged a pressure gauge from my ac, and a t connector, it isn't as accurate as some but I do have pressure.

Next on the list to set Timing not check it but set it hard.

I have a suspision that the Cam might have slipped a tooth... I mean everything is there fuel, injection, spark, oil.....so what the hell else could it be now? It is flakey starting or yesterday when idleing, it wouldn't advance under throttle past 2000 rpm....

So my question is, the dimple on the cam. The lobes for number one down, and set to middle, should it be coming on the intake stroke, or the exhaust stroke.

I have set the timing it was off by two teeth on the cam dimple, have verified that it is still in time.

The car fired right up, but the son turned off the key, and it died...not to be started again.

I have pulled the injectors, I will test them tomorrow, Shoot I might just go to the yard and get 4 more.

It is sure acting like it is getting too much fuel I blew into each injector, and they don't bleed any air, I suppose theu could be sticky, I am going to hit them with a 9v battery and shoot some pb blaster through them.

It is perplexing as to why it is like fouling.

As I think that is the key. Let it dry out, and the damn thing will start, and idle, but as soon as I give it gas....flood city.

I am done for the night the fuel rail pressure regulator screw is bound and i stripped the allen...so that awaits to morrow as well as trying to get the fuel connectors out. I can get to the inside 5mm allen and I can't find my short allen set. SOOOO I spose I will get a new set tomorrow.

[tolusina]

Brian,

Have you taken a good look at the fuel itself as you've been pumping, testing and so forth? Maybe you caught a big gulp of water in the tank recently?? Pump some into a plastic oil can, look close. Water will settle to the bottom.

"So my question is, the dimple on the cam. The lobes for number one down, and set to middle, should it be coming on the intake stroke, or the exhaust stroke."
Cam lobes should be UP for #1. Use the mark on the back side of the gear, line it up with the edge of the valve cover. Ignore the straight up pointer on the plastic, top inner timing cover, in fact, take that cover off while you are checking/setting cam timing, it's onlt two nuts and it's really in the way.

Ron

[Briano1234]

No water in the tank. It is pure Gas, that I am pumping. I used a Clear jug to test the volume with.

It has to either be an injector or 3, that is sticking, or a bad ECU.

All the electrical tests that you can do to a digifart box check out. I am almost stupified....The only electrical connection that was off was the ground strap to the digifart bracket, that was at 7 ohms or so, I have it replaced by a #12 solid copper wire.

I have the injectors out, I have a 9vdc battery that I am going to pick them with and work some carb cleaner followed by pb blaster and then gas with tomorrow then test them to see the pattern...

I am also going to the wrecking yard and get me a set of injectors, and maybe a ECU tomorrow. From the looks of the o-rings I don't think they have ever been out of the car.

It is just like the car is getting too much gas, and is flooding out. I did find the timing about 2 tooths off, the belt is fine, and the timing is rock hard set at 0tdc. that was 2 teeth high for tdc. I did check the belt for broken or chipped teeth...didn't see any.


If the Cylinders are dry, the car will start. will idle, but won't throttle up past 2000... if you turn it off, it may or may not start again, you take out the plugs and they are wet.

[Calimus]

Brian, you prollie won't like this, but here is something to check. The key-way that the crank-cog rides on has been known to shear. Same for the cam pully, though it's pretty rare. The crank however is something to check. This could account for the timing issue if all else fails. Set the timing right, play with it for a bit, if the timing is off again, might be best to check the keyway.

Would hate to think the ecu took a crap, but it wouldn't be the first time it's happened. A bad injector as well, *shrug* I dunno. Hopefully it turns out to be something silly like an injector or the ecu. I'll be out of town for the next day or so, but keep me posted.

[Briano1234]

Well, that is something I thought about, but the timing seems to be holding at the marks....

Today I scored at the yard,,,

4 injectors
Digifart 2 ECS
Hal Sender
Fuel Pump External
Resoviour (fuel)
Injector harness.

They wanted 16 bucks at napa for the o-rings for the injectors a set....
Pep-boys was the same. Then I had a brilliant thought.

The 30 red injectors off of a FORD t-bird sc fit, so I figured I'd ask...
The kit which is 2-orings seat and seal 2.39 each. So I matched them up look just fine..... Sold
4-injector seal kits 11 bucks for a ford
4-injector seal kits @16 for a dub toomuch


i will let you know how the cabby turns after a brief pause for liquid refreshment, and a sammich.

[gull]

Have you checked the coolant temp sender yet? If it shorts out the car can be hell to start, if it goes open the car can flood out and stall...

[Briano1234]

Have you checked the coolant temp sender yet? If it shorts out the car can be hell to start, if it goes open the car can flood out and stall...

I unplugged it, but then again it is brand spanking new 2 weeks old.

I had thought on that myself.


I cleaned all the injectors, and shot carb cleaner through them today with power picking the coil, they all had a nice spray pattern.

I replaced the seals, the Digifart ECU the Cap Rotor, and made sure that the new seals weren't leaking, and nada. Same old shit new day.

Tomorrow:

Start over from scratch. I have the old CTS sensor somewhere, it is funky when warm have to unplug it to start.

Going to check the tank , then the pumps (again) replace if my new one checks out as to pumping, (haven't tested it yet).

Verify time is on again, then change back the ECU and Hall Sender.

I mean for most of the carp to have been changed, this is got to be so simple it ain't funny kinda fix.

So with that I have called it quits for the evening and will continue in the AM.

Besides the Skeeters are out now.....

I tested the new pump and it puimpins de gasoline...
tomorroe it goes on.

I did measure the CTS with the ambiant temp here it was right on the money according to the bentley graph.

What it ain't
Cap
plugs
plug wires
rotor
injectors
fuel pressure regulator
(good) pump pressure and volume
Injector wire harness
ECU
Hall Sender controller.
Timing is dead on the button.
Not a plugged Cat
resonator
muffler


So with that being said, it is time to start over and verify everything from the fuel pump relay, to all the fuses again

Then work my way to the engine.

[tolusina]

Brian,

Please, go buy a proper pressure gauge or two, take some real and accurate measurements of fuel pressure and exhaust back pressure.

Measure the injector pulse width, I know you have adequate electronic experience to do this, borrow a lab scope already.

How about some accurate charging system voltage readings? And some voltage drop readings across both battery cables.

I'm guessing you are both over and under thinking this problem, it's likely something simple and basic, get back to basics with some accurate measurements.

Fuel, Air, Ignition, all at the proper times and in the proper quantities.

__________________
More thoughts...... it starts, then fouls out, running way rich.

Is your oxygen sensor shorted to ground?? Low voltage = lean signal = rich correction. A DVOM should show 0.5VDC ± 0.5 VDC, fluctuating while running.

Have you exposed the oxygen sensor to any non-sensor safe chemicals, even through the intake? I had a run of self inflicted bad O2 sensors way back when using penetrant to remove them prior to manifold removal for stud repairs. On re-assembly, the operating range shifted down from the normal 0.5VDC ± 0.5 VDC to 0.0VDC ± VDC. Yes, they swung to negative voltage!!! The ECU processed that as a lean signal and forced a very rich condition.
___________________

Ron

[Briano1234]

Ron when I cluge a gauge, you can bet your ass that it works.

The problem is, after re-assembling everything exactally as it was, differnt fuel pump, and filter, Purged the lines of air.

Started the car and it was idleing fine. Loud but fine.

I went to check the static timing, and found out that I needed to move the distributor.

That is the problem................the whole problem I think.

I have the adjuster clamp entirely off the car, and I can't move the distributor at all nada......

Right now I have the base sitting in PB Blaster and am shocking the bottom of it with a BFS and a Hammer and it won't budge. I know that once the timing is set then the internals never move it is adjusted electronically, but I get no....adjustment out of the distributor at all.

I figure that they adjusted the timing by slipping the cam two teeth, as that is originally were it was and I saw it at 6BTDC.

I don't know if the intermediate gear is dicked but that would account for a lot.

I am hoping that when I get the dist free, and able to adjust things might go better.

It is still running tooooooo rich as I can see wet in the Cylinders.

I have the plugs out letting it dry, I have some ether I can shoot in but don't want to tempt fate.

The 02 sensor reads infinite when cold, and then it is @ .5 when running.

The charging system is fine I have 13.5 at the battery and 13.5 out of the alt when it is running. I have never had any concerns with the Alt/Charging system.

I am going to run to the yards and see about getting a Dist housing.

Later, stay Tuned for as the Cabby turns.


Went to Pull-a-Part (again) and in the just delivered row were two 1993 jetta's. The first one I saw had the distributor and 3 minutes later it was MINE. Also picked up another CTS sensor, Two Knock sensors, a Perfect Raintray.....two fingered metal servo's and a complete Head gasket set... Save for the head gasket....Both had ECU's and Fuel Pumps...May go get another one...I didn't take the tool box, just a MFH BFS, and a 13mm wrench....I know I sould of taken a Screw driver or too.

Got home and I spose the PB-Blaster worked, as two hits at an angle on the dist base and it started to move.... few minutes later and "wally" it moved either direction smoothly, so now I can adjust timing. Started the car and nada nothing, like no Spark...then it dawned on me that I forgot to connect the Hall Sensor plug, so out comes the plugs it is flooded again "My Fault"......

[Briano1234]

The Intermediate gear on the shaft looks to be good.
The different distributor works, but I run out of movement as the hall sensor hits the engine block, that is the whole problem. Timing is way off.

I keep putting the dist back in the same place, I am tired and froggy, but if I twist the dist to the left I can get it to start and run every time. Even idle a bit. So I am happier than I was.

Now that I have the ability to move the Dist. that make it easier to time....

I was confused that the oil pump key was immovable, but alas It dawned on me I can put it any where I want....DOH I must be tired.


Tomorrow If I can't get it in... Then I am going to replace the belt and tensioner......

But I want to get it halfway running first.

[gull]

If you can't twist the distributor far enough to get proper timing, I assume that means the intermediate shaft is mistimed?

[Briano1234]

If you can't twist the distributor far enough to get proper timing, I assume that means the intermediate shaft is mistimed?

Probably, but I am not too worried as I can now set the Dist to any position that I want. I am going to Zero it in tomorrow.

Then I will have a drivable cab, it occured to me that the intermediate Shaft can be any where you want as long as the dist is in the right position.

I think the Car was so screwed up by the previous owner that he didn't know how to fix it, and neither did the mech that worked on it. But they have never met me, nor could grasp the depth of my resolve. I have a I either beat it into submission or it kills me, and I am still around......so I don't loose too many mechanical battles, after all I have a torch a BFH and a prybar.....

I may stumble and get sidetracked but I always find the light at the end of the tunnel.

In this case the fact that the Dist and the Cam was off fooled me.... I moved the cam, instead of thinking the Dist was the culpret.

Hell this is only the second month I have had the car. I still got another month or two till all the bugs are worked out.

[tolusina]

Ron when I cluge a gauge, you can bet your ass that it works.......

...then it dawned on me that I forgot to connect the Hall Sensor plug, so out comes the plugs it is flooded again "My Fault"......

If you are confident in the accuracy of your previous fuel pressure readings, they are a tad on the high side, you wrote "Fuel pump pressure is 48psi under start, and static holds at 36psi under no load". Bentley specs approx 36 psi with vacuum at the fuel pressure regulator, approx 44 psi with vacuum hose removed. These pressures, while Bentley says "approx'[/] are as old as L-Jetronic and haven't changed. 48 psi is almost 10% high for no vacuum.

If you had no Hall signal because it was unplugged, there should not have been any injector pulse. How did it get fuel to flood with no injector pulse?? Answer yourself that one, you may have the answer you seek.